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no subject
Date: 2021-09-22 04:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-09-22 04:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-09-22 04:58 pm (UTC)So
I'm fine with it
no subject
Date: 2021-09-22 05:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-09-22 07:00 pm (UTC)He should either been on board or off the train. This whole "I won't do it but I am fine standing by while someone else does" is total garbage.
no subject
Date: 2021-09-22 08:02 pm (UTC)Second, I see this as less him stepping aside to let someone else do it and more as John stepping forward to offer. We're in the middle of the scene at the end of the issue--let's not bust out the Jump to Conclusions mat just yet.
Third, why are we assuming the plan is torture? Sin mentions it, and our collective dislike of USAgent seems to be pushing us to assume that's his intent, but again, it's the middle of the scene and the end of the issue--classic spot for a bait and switch by the writer. Even if it is, there's plenty of people there to stop him. Fourth, torture isn't the only way to get information out of people. It isn't like they don't know a gaggle of powerful telepaths, for instance (not that mind invasion isn't its own icky can of worms).
no subject
Date: 2021-09-22 09:46 pm (UTC)If this does in fact lead to something other than Walker stepping out of a room with a beaten and bloody Sin tied to a chair visible over his shoulder then it's not just a bait and switch, it's a massive anti-climax and waste of the readers' time. A better final cliffhanger would be to discover the true extent of Sin's plan, leaving us wondering how the heroes can possibly stop it. Instead the concluding issue has to cram in that explanation on top of attempting to provide an exciting and rewarding ending, lessening both.
no subject
Date: 2021-09-22 10:01 pm (UTC)I can all but guarantee that won’t happen. John Walker just appeared in this issue and is written as being well-intentioned (I.e. getting along with Cap and co) and in a humorous self-deprecating fashion.
If they were at all going for that angle Cantwell would have introduced him in the first issue and established some sort of running conflict between him and the other Caps culminating in this scene.
no subject
Date: 2021-09-23 11:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-09-24 04:40 pm (UTC)It would be better if any interrogation took place here, in the penultimate issue, where the cliffhanger could instead be 'oh no that's what her plan is', not 'i wonder wot her plan is'.
Perhaps, instead of spending pages outlining how they are going to extract the information, the writer could simply have had the information itself, saving space for the next issue to be fully involved with concluding the story (and also, inevitably, setting up potential sequels and spin-off series).
no subject
Date: 2021-09-25 01:52 pm (UTC)If this does in fact lead to something other than Walker stepping out of a room with a beaten and bloody Sin tied to a chair visible over his shoulder then it's not just a bait and switch, it's a massive anti-climax and waste of the readers' time.
This implies that if he does torture her, then it's not an anti-climax/waste of time. I simply don't see how that's true. If the cliffhanger is 'it looks like he's going to do a bad thing', and the resolution is 'yeah, he does it', that's sort of the definition of an anti-climax.
no subject
Date: 2021-09-25 02:46 pm (UTC)If there is torture in the next issue, we will still have page-count there absorbed by exposition-under-duress, but at least the cliffhanger here is building to something. I may find it distasteful personally, but at least it has a purpose.
no subject
Date: 2021-09-25 11:56 pm (UTC)You're saying the equivalent of: they have imminent death produced as a cliffhanger, so if they don't kill off the heroes next issue then it's a fake-out and a waste of time. That's . . . not how cliffhangers work.
no subject
Date: 2021-09-26 07:32 am (UTC)It would be like... the heroes realising at the end of the issue that they had to perform a mad drive across the country to beat the villain to their goal, prepping the reader for an exciting chase at the opening of the next issue, only for the following issue to open with the heroes ending a phone call to someone at the destination to deal with it on their behalf. The same results are achieved, only without the method that was promised.
To use the deathtrap example, it would be like the villain putting the heroes into a deahtrap that they must use their wits to escape, only for the villain to let them out himself without any effort on the heroes' part. Sure, it ends with the heroes alive either way, but one is more satisfying than the other.
no subject
Date: 2021-09-26 09:07 am (UTC)But there are many ways to resolve this without torture actually happening. Maybe Cap and Walker get into a fight over it, and this turns out to be part of Sin's real plot to cause discord. Maybe Walker is playing a psychological game to trick her. Maybe he's going to torture her, but then Steve makes a big speech about blah blah blah that's not the American way, whatever, and it's super inspiring and helps them save the day.
There are countless ways for heroes to escape a deathtrap. They can break out. The deathtrap could turn out to be a ruse as part of some larger plan. They could appeal to the villain's better nature and talk their way out. Some of these ideas are more compelling than others. But what you're saying is, they introduced the possibility of torture, so they should have torture or it's a waste of time. This is the equivalent of saying, they introduced the possibility of death, so they should have the hero die or it's a waste of time. It makes no sense.
no subject
Date: 2021-09-26 10:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-09-26 11:58 am (UTC)This is especially nonsensical because you don't want to see torture. It's a bad thing. When the villain says, "I'm going to dissolve you in my acid pit" and makes a big show of their dissolving acid pit, who on earth feels cheated when the hero manages to completely avoid being dissolved in the acid pit? Your arguments are completely incomprehensible to me.
no subject
Date: 2021-09-26 04:22 pm (UTC)One: I dislike the idea of torture being used by the characters present here.
Two: If torture is going to be the end-of-issue threat, it should at least feature somewhat into the story as it continues. Throwing it up as just a cheap shock and then going in a different direction begs the question 'why even bring it up, then?' This issue would apply even if it were not torture but something else. I would feel the same if the cliffhanger were 'shit, I forgot to get Steve a birthday present' and the birthday wasn't mentioned going forward.
The torture only features in this story as a device by which information is imparted to the characters. This information must be imparted for the story to work, and thus requires page space. The method to reveal the information is ultimately less vital, and if it is not going to be a big dramatic 'thing', then it doesn't need to hog the precious last page cliffhanger on top of that.
Personally, I would feel more invested in the story if all the cards were on the table leading into the finale rather than the protagonists being in the dark at its opening. If the page-eating torture is going to be present, put it in one place rather than spread it as a bridge over two issues.
no subject
Date: 2021-09-26 11:03 pm (UTC)But there are many ways to resolve this without torture actually happening. Maybe Cap and Walker get into a fight over it, and this turns out to be part of Sin's real plot to cause discord. Maybe Walker is playing a psychological game to trick her. Maybe he's going to torture her, but then Steve makes a big speech about blah blah blah that's not the American way, whatever, and it's super inspiring and helps them save the day.
Your assumption that "The torture only features in this story as a device by which information is imparted to the characters" is something you totally made up - you don't even know for sure that they're going to torture her! Torture could feature as a moral issue that the characters must take their stances on, or serve to provoke conflict between them, or an opportunity by which the villain gets the upper hand, etc, etc. Why do you keep assuming that the only two options are 1) they torture her, or 2) they don't torture her, and no one ever mentions torture again?
Like, if an issue ends with the villain pointing a gun at the hero's head, no one assumes that the only two options are 1) the hero gets shot in the head, or 2) the gun disappears next issue and no one ever mentions it again. This mindset you are stuck in is completely bizarre.
no subject
Date: 2021-09-27 06:14 am (UTC)If the torture were to be a major moral dilemma, that would be just the sort of page real estate hogging that irks me so. Given that torture is the not the main driving force of the story as a whole, merely a tiny plot point, why not raise and address it in the space of a single issue, rather than elevate it here to the big, final challenge that puts the reader on tenterhooks that they MUST BUY the next issue to see how it ends?
Unless we've had a rising tension of torture throughout the series I wasn't aware of and this is a foreshadowed resolution of that, in which case I withdraw my petty protest.
I'm sorry if my opinion of the handling of this story has annoyed you.
no subject
Date: 2021-09-27 08:25 am (UTC)You seem to think that the page space should be reserved for finding out the bad guys' plot and defeating them; I think the opposite. I think that part is page-filler and should be minimized. I think the meat of the series is in introducing us to all these various Captains America, and their differing views on the US and what patriotism means to them. The evil plot is just, y'know, a plot device to give them a reason to all have to work together and interact.
no subject
Date: 2021-09-23 10:00 pm (UTC)And I wouldn't be surprised that Sin got trained to whistand torture by her father or by Crossbones. And that John's idea of torture would make her laugh rather than cry.
no subject
Date: 2021-09-24 04:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-09-22 07:52 pm (UTC)If it was anyone else sure
When it comes to Nazis I think Aldo Raine had the right idea
no subject
Date: 2021-09-23 10:49 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-09-22 08:17 pm (UTC)Agree/Disagree?
no subject
Date: 2021-09-23 03:58 pm (UTC)Big part of my problem with is actually, but for better or worse my dad's Denny O'Neil GL/GA was a big part of my childhood so I recognize the feel of those book anywhere.
no subject
Date: 2021-09-22 11:44 pm (UTC)