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As has been discussed briefly before, Jason Todd first appeared in 1984 as another circus kid, but in June 1987 that got wiped away completely in the pages of Batman #408.

Unfortunately, I used up a few pages from Batman #408 in this post about how Dick gave up being Robin in this iteration.

So to balance that out, I'm also going to look at #409 and #410, which expand on Jason 2.0's introduction and training, and also looks to maybe highlight how the kid got a bum rap, especially after he died.

Batman #410 00.jpg



As is perhaps well known, Jason 2.0 has perhaps one of the most iconic introductions of any Robin, HE'S the kid who boosted the wheels of the Batmobile!

Batman has just been to see Comissioner Gordon to confirm that whilst Robin isn't literally dead, the costumeed identity is,to all intents and purposes, gone for good. Gordon is relieved, he liked and admired Robin, but never felt right about Batman working with a child (Worth noting AGAIN, that Dick was actually 18 long before the events outlined in this story happened, but let's not brng logic into this situation.)

It's the anniversary of his parents being shot so Batman also visits Crime Alley, where a new home for juvenile delinquents has opened up, being run by a chaacter we'll meet later on, a sweet little old lady known as "Ma" Gunn, whose work and courage Batman strongly admires.

After chatting with her he goes back to the Batmobile and...

Batman #408 17.jpg

Batman #408 18.jpg

Batman trails the kid back to his "home"

Batman #408 19.jpg

Batman #408 20.jpg

Batman #408 21.jpg

I like to think Jason read a LOT of Philip Marlowe.

Struck with inspiration for what to do with this kid, and since she's local, he leaves him with "Ma" Gunn to look after him and make sure that he gets an education.

Of course, this being Gotham, things are never quite that rosy, as Jason soon finds out.

Batman #409 02.jpg

Batman #409 03.jpg

Jason disappears under a dogpile of a half dozon kids all bigger than he is, and still crawls out from under them, punching every which way, but eventually...

Batman #409 04.jpg

Now it has to be said that calling the leader of a group of child thieves "Fay Gunn" is not exactly Hickman-ish in it's subtle complexity, but I do love her unreservedly, in all her little old lady dressing, cigar-chewing, ruthlessness.

The next day Bruce Wayne visits her school with Vicki Vale and some of the Press, and everything is exemplary.

Batman #409 08.jpg

Batman #409 09.jpg

She is NOT happy, however, when one of her students is smoking weed. She has SOME standards... sort of

Batman #409 10.jpg

Batman #409 11.jpg

Jason meanwhile has gone straight back to his old home, and his old habits.

Batman #409 15.jpg

Batman #409 16.jpg

"What young man?" the guy asks, and Batman suddenly finds himself in the same situation as Gordon usually is at the end of their conversations. Jason has vanished like a ghost (have to say, sneaking away from Batman is quite a feat.

So Ma and her boys have gone for a little educational soujurn to the Museum, where "The Smile of Death", the neckalce the joker stole the night he shot and, to the public's eye killed, Robin. The Joker is in Arkham, but his wallet and his goons are outside, and their boss still wants the necklace, so they've hired Ma to do it for them.

It's going versy smoothly and it would have done, if someone hadn't tipped off Batman who, in a nice nod to Bat-history, finds them in a hall which along with the gems is hosting a display of the world's largest paste gems (Giant props are a VERY Gotham thing)

The fight goes well for the most part... but does include this moment...

Batman #409 20.jpg

There's one student left though and he's about to get the drop on Batman (literally), when...

Batman #409 21.jpg

Making puns when punching out bad guys, I wonder what that might foreshadow?

Batman #409 22.jpg

Now this is cute and all, but it flies so far in the face of the starts of the story it seems dlieberately reckless. A trained, experienced 18 year old Dick Grayson can be fired, but as 12 year old street kid can go straight to Robin? But such is life..

And now we move to Batman #410, which suggests that there's been more going on...

Batman #410 01.jpg

Batman #410 02.jpg

And this is where the tendency to make Jason 2.0 the "angsty rebellious kid from the outset Robin" just sort of falls over, look at this happily studious little geek! But there's more to come in that vein.

Jason notes that he's been studying a LOT of criminal files on Gotham's super bad guys, but he's never been given access to Two-Face's files. Bruce covers for himself, saying that it's merely an oversight, but Alfred privately calls Bruce out on this, he appreciates he's trying to shield Jason from learning about Two-Face and how he probably killed Willis Todd, but it's not going to make things any easier when the time comes.

Batman #410 07.jpg

Bruce acknowledges this, and so...

Batman #410 08.jpg

Awww.... :)

and next comes a rather awkward inroduction, for Batman, of not Robin.

Batman #410 09.jpg

No, I don't really think he is Bruce, but whatever gets you through this.

It turns out, of course, that the latest villain to show up in Gotham is Two-Face himself who, along with his two pairs of identical twin henchmen (The Doppler brothers, and the Rorrim brothers, whose names I had to mention because... Oy!)

And again, we see that new Jason is just as quippy and punny as before, if anything he's actualy moreso than Jason 1.0 tended to be, depending on the writer.

Batman #410 18.jpg

That's a VERY Robin takedown.

And when Two-Face take a bystander hostage, it's Jason who decides to weaponise being the Boy Hostage, suggesting the Harvey take HIM instead.

Batman #410 20.jpg

I'll bet you'll NEVER guess what he does next! :)

I'll leave the scans there, but will address again, that apart from the back story changing, Jason 2.0, by the time he was Robin, wasn't what he later became known for, thanks to years of writers retroactively peeing on his reputation from a great height; constantly stressing how unsuited he'd been as Robin, how rebellious and disobedient, and a punk street kid who smoked and made unsubtle innuendo to Barbara. (I mean aside from the cigarette he's seen smoking in his intro, he NEVER smokes again during his time as Robin, any scene which suggests he did is a retcon to make him look more of a punk, or something)

Let me be clear, from the outset Jason Todd 2.0 was a genuinely NICE kid. He was polite to people, he was not only a bookworm at school who got high marks in everything, but worked hard there so he could help organise school events to museums and the like because he enjoyed things like that. He even had a girlfriend (Well, sort of, he asked her out on a date, she said yes

He was no more disobedient than Dick or Jason 1.0 had been, and like them always with the best of intentions.

That shifted a little as he was set up for the death vote, he got moodier, but even then there was always a justification.

He intervened during a solo observation mission when he saw the Scarecrow was far more ready to unleash a new attack than Batman had been aware of, which accidentally left Scarecrow in a coma when he OD'd on his own new super-strong fear toxin, and Jason wasn't particularly perturbed by that, though Batman was.

His major break was shortly before he was killed, when he may, or may not, have pushed a multiple rapist (who Batman and Robin arrested and who then used his one phone call to torment his latest victim to the point she committed suicide, and then claimed diplomatic immunity because his father was an ambassador) and it's very tough to feel he was morally in the wrong if he had.

So that's Jason 2.0 folks. Opinions? Thoughts?

Date: 2020-03-23 10:25 pm (UTC)
obsidianwolf: 3 of 3 Icons I never change (Default)
From: [personal profile] obsidianwolf
Like I said in the Jason 1.0 post if anyone looks bad in the original story it's Bruce.

I mean I am always struck when I reread this how long in universe Jason was Robin. I mean you've got 6 months of Training before he's allowed out on his own. Then the flash back to a year ago which is his first solo night when he meets Dick. Which is probably the only time you can ever say he was reckless on panel and given it was his first solo night it's understandable to an extent.

Plus that flashback story is where Bruce's this child is older than us BS to Gordan and the saving him from being a criminal BS To Alfred is revealed as just that Bull shit when Bruce admits to Dick that he made Jason Robin because he missed Dick.

Then back to the present where there is a case that last several months of in universe time that ends just before the set up for Death in the family begins.

So he had to be Robin for at least around two years give or take a few months.

I won't even go into the other ways Bruce screwed up royally during the whole mess.
Edited (missing letter) Date: 2020-03-23 10:27 pm (UTC)

Date: 2020-03-24 04:02 am (UTC)
beyondthefringe: (Default)
From: [personal profile] beyondthefringe
I dig the way Bats is just chilling on Gordon's couch, arms spread, legs crossed, like he's just one of the guys. You just never see Batman that relaxed anymore.

Date: 2020-03-24 08:39 am (UTC)
minervasolo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] minervasolo
I was thinking exactly that! I miss chill Batman.

Date: 2020-03-24 04:31 am (UTC)
sarahnewlin: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sarahnewlin
Ma is an interesting lady. Reminds me of....I think it was Captain America in drag?
She ever appear again?

Date: 2020-03-24 05:56 am (UTC)
lego_joker: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lego_joker
I think one of the Rebirth Bat-books modernized her, though I haven't actually read it.

Date: 2020-03-24 08:05 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] beeyo
The current Red Hood and The Outlaws have brought her up here and again. If I'm not mistaken, Jason finds letters from his father at her place that sets him down a path that sullied a genuinely good Jason Todd series up to that point. But hey, as far as Robins that had to be taken pff the board before City of Bane, Jay didn't even get the worst of it

Date: 2020-03-24 04:24 pm (UTC)
deh_tommy: (Default)
From: [personal profile] deh_tommy
Tom King’s Batman felt like that really wanted to be a clever and moving deconstruction of the Batman mythos, especially with the ideas that “Batman can’t be happy” and “Batman can just Batman his way through anything because he’s Batman”.

Unfortunately, a lot of the book (to me, at least) ended up feeling like some kind of mean-spirited hottake from what someone who doesn’t like or get Batman thinks Batman is actually like and became the exact kind of edgy DARKNESS NO PARENTS thing stuff like HISHE and The LEGO Movies so lovingly satirised.

Date: 2020-03-24 11:28 pm (UTC)
kurenai_tenka: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kurenai_tenka
'But hey, as far as Robins that had to be taken pff the board before City of Bane, Jay didn't even get the worst of it'

Not that it was even needed, when Thomas was taking down 5 of them at once (inc Cass) while injured. I'm sure he could've handled the whole Batfam with his hands behind his back with that level of logic.

Date: 2020-03-24 08:21 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] beeyo
It's hard to argue that Jason has been morally wrong in anything after Morrison's turn with him...besides maybe that little murder spree he went on after Bruce kicked him out of Gotham (and even then...what the fuck Bruce).

When was the last time Jason Todd did something really heinous? The people that write him keep telling us he's the bad one but he's been a pretty honourable dude for more than a decade now. Sure. Jason's the outsider, Bruce. Never mind your son, the kid that will literally go from "I must follow my father's lead" to "I'm gonna cut everybody's heads off" at a moment's notice. Nah. Jason is the problem.

Date: 2020-03-24 04:26 pm (UTC)
deh_tommy: (Default)
From: [personal profile] deh_tommy
Isn’t he a criminal kingpin now? Plus, regardless of whether or not you think they deserved to die, Jason Todd still killed a lot of people without remorse.

Date: 2020-03-24 11:29 pm (UTC)
kurenai_tenka: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kurenai_tenka
Nah, he was in charge of a legitimate(ish) casino for a bit, but now we've moved on and it's business as usual again.

Date: 2020-03-26 09:38 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] beeyo
He's a "criminal kingpin" in the same sort of way that Matt Murdoch was when he took over as Kingpin. I look at post-New 52 Jason as a kind of a completely different character from pre-New 52 Jason, because he kinda is, y'know? The days of him being a revenge-fueled maniac have been gone for a long time now. He has friends outside of the Batfamily that he genuinely cares about. He's had bonding moments with all of the other Robins (maybe not so much a bonding moment with Damian, but he donned the R and ran headfirst into Apokolips to get the kid back), Barbara, and even Bruce himself. And most importantly he doesn't cut off mob bosses heads and shove them into duffel bags anymore. God awful first issue of the rebooted RHatO aside, dude just doesn't murder willy nilly. I just feel like every attempt to paint him as the Punisher of the Batfamily is so far off from what he actually is now that it comes off as insulting. I personally like who Jason has grown into and i wish they would stop trying to portray him as any different than what he is.

Date: 2020-03-24 11:31 pm (UTC)
kurenai_tenka: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kurenai_tenka
Damian has kind of gone from "I'm gonna cut everybody's heads off" to "I must follow my father's lead" and then back again, huh?

Even Damian has picked up Bruce's habit for blaming Jason for everything with zero reason, that's twice now lol.

Date: 2020-03-24 08:53 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] cricharddavies
Now this is cute and all, but it flies so far in the face of the starts of the story it seems dlieberately reckless. A trained, experienced 18 year old Dick Grayson can be fired, but as 12 year old street kid can go straight to Robin?

I believe Max Allan Collins has stated that he was trying to recreate the Dick Tracy and Junior partnership, here.

Date: 2020-03-24 09:00 am (UTC)
leahandillyana: (Default)
From: [personal profile] leahandillyana
Those issues are the ones I consider the funniest Batman stories ever, with just the perfect blend of pre-Crisis silliness and post-Crisis grimdark. They are comical in classic, platonic sense, where the humours comes from seeing petty people with illussions of grandeur attempting to do things well above their level. The intentionally darkly humorous stories with Joker or Harley were never funny to me.

Date: 2020-03-24 02:27 pm (UTC)
bradygirl_12: (yule (yuletide treasure--silver))
From: [personal profile] bradygirl_12
Bronze Age stories tended to be that way: more serious than the Silver Age but with Silver Age touches. It was a nice combo. Batman was a little grimmer but not a jerk.
Edited Date: 2020-03-24 02:28 pm (UTC)

Date: 2020-03-24 11:26 pm (UTC)
kurenai_tenka: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kurenai_tenka
"(I mean aside from the cigarette he's seen smoking in his intro, he NEVER smokes again during his time as Robin, any scene which suggests he did is a retcon to make him look more of a punk, or something)"

A rather irksome bit of fanon; even with the annoying retcons, it was a whole two times, and never once post-resurrection.


And I really like his second introduction. I don't like people placing a hard line between pre/post-crisis Jason (if pre-crisis version is 'not Jason', then who is it?) They have different backgrounds but aren't objectively that different. His original origin was just... Dick's, whereas his second puts some great differences between the two.

Aaaaand ofc I enjoyed and agreed with your discussion of how he was a good kid. It's amazing the degree to which people swallow the retcons, to the point of accusing people of having never read og Robin!Jason stories, despite very clearly not having read them themselves. Robin!Jason was adorable, and a big nerd who thought history was cool.

Date: 2020-03-25 01:05 pm (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
It's amazing the degree to which people swallow the retcons, to the point of accusing people of having never read og Robin!Jason stories

Thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis. I mentioned that Jason was never really that reckless, and in DiTF, he only ignored Batman's orders because he was tricked into thinking that Joker was after his mom, and no superhero ever would have stayed in while their parents were in danger. And this guy goes "you didn't read any of Jason's stories before his death, did you?"

Date: 2020-03-25 01:15 pm (UTC)
kurenai_tenka: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kurenai_tenka
Uuuuuugh

I have caps of a great tumblr interaction (or was it youtube? Probably both) to that effect; people who believe the retcons are SO SURE that ~we apologists have never read the ~totally canon and true 'Jason was awful' comics that they'll pop off without having read a damn page of them themselves (probably not even DITF).

And yeah, Bruce told Jason not to go after the Joker. His mum categorically told him the Joker wasn't there. No intentional rule-breaking even happened.


Like, fucker, not only have I read the pre-death comics, I OWN quite a few of them. >:(

Date: 2020-03-25 12:41 am (UTC)
zenfrodo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zenfrodo
"A trained, experienced 18 year old Dick Grayson can be fired, but as 12 year old street kid can go straight to Robin?"

I thought Dick Grayson quit on his own? There was the whole scene in Teen Titans' "Judas Contract" that has him removing the red&greens, while saying it was time for him to stop being the other half of "Batman and..."

Date: 2020-03-26 05:50 pm (UTC)
zenfrodo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zenfrodo
My brain shut down & refused to see it, due to the sheer amount of illogic Batman dumps on the scene.
Edited Date: 2020-03-26 05:51 pm (UTC)

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