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'Western Detective Fiction thinks Dupin important as he was formative to the genre but does not consider him the paragon of the type. Imagine a world where we could say "Apollo is a more interesting character than Superman" rather than "Apollo is derived from Superman."' -- Kieron Gillen

'I’m trying to imagine a world in which Apollo is more interesting than Superman. No knock on Apollo. But yeah, in other forms, inspiration is a legitimate springboard to creation; in comics it’s looked at askance.' -- Kurt Busiek

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From:

lordultimus

To those quotes, I think the problem is that Dupin was only in three stories over a hundred and fifty years ago, while Superman has been a near constant presence for over 75 years in some form or another, especially in the world of comics. It would be far different if, say, Captain Marvel succeeded in eclipsing him in the forties.

From:

palgrave_goldenrod

It's not exactly the same, granted, but if we replace 'Dupin' with 'Sherlock Holmes' then suddenly Gillen's point looks a lot more shaky.

From:

palgrave_goldenrod

Actually, no it doesn't, that is Gillen's point, what on earth am I thinking.

From:

alschroeder3

Another difference is that comic heroes keep on going. Dupin and Sherlock Holmes have their pastiches, but in general the stories of them are done. They're in the past. New characters can evolve as the genre evolve, and they're not stuck in a shared continuity where Dupin is STILL deducting in a modern Paris, Holmes in a modern London. (Well, there's the TV series SHERLOCK, but you know what I mean). Most TV detectives these days are police procedurals, not the hard-boiled detectives of the thirties and forties, much less the eccentric genius of Victorian fiction. Nor are they stuck in a shared universe (unless you're a follower of Wold Newton theories) like most comic book heroes are, where they share a universe with characters conceived in the thirties and forties. They can start again, in the "real" world and take their own tangent---owing the past, but not stuck in it. Unlike comic heroes.

From:

zachbeacon

I feel like Batman is going to be remembered long after Zorro and Zorro has certainly overshadowed the Scarlet Pimpernel.

From:

glprime

I mean, Batman still incorporates Zorro into his mythos with that origin story of going to the movies (sometimes it's the opera or theatre) and often it's Zorro on the marquee. That always gets me.

From:

q99

On the story itself, it's a pretty good one!

From:

icon_uk

Agreed, I could sort of see where it was heading early on, but it's a nice journey to get there.

From:

mrstatham

This. I've never actually read much of Astro City, only the bits and pieces I've seen on here. It's making me think I should reconsider.

From:

scorntx

You should

From:

burkeonthesly

I can honestly say I've never read a bad Astro City. Busiek at his worst is merely middling, and he often finds a way to put heart in the most unexpected places.

From:

q99

And even for Busiek, who's a great writer in general, I think Astro City tends more towards the high end.

From:

zachbeacon

Astro City #1/2 is free on Comixology. If that doesn't sell you on it then I don't know what will.

From:

q99

It's one of my all-time fav series.

From:

bradygirl_12

Ha, sometimes solitude is superior to 'civilization'.

From:

domino_blue

I don't think it's a very good point Gillen brings up or at least it's not a well thought out one, if you look at characters and stories in other mediums there are characters and concepts that people refer to the originator here's a list.

Movies- Die Hard plot, Ghostbusters,
Anime- Gundam, Fist of the North Star
etc, etc

Hell even comics has it's own derivative characters who are popular, Daredevil would not exist without Spider-man or Spawn with Venom, Saga has been noted to very Star wars but is very unique on it's own. It was a interesting thought until you think about it and he could apply it to more mediums than just comics, whatever becomes the Paragon is often just people gravitating towards a version they like.

From:

laughing_tree

I think what he means is that in other genres and formats, new creations aren't weighed down by the fact they're inspired by older ones. People might call "Speed" "Die Hard on a bus" but they still think of it first and foremost as its own thing, not as "that Die Hard expy" or as off-brand Die Hard.

Edited Date: 2017-04-11 12:35 pm (UTC)

From:

domino_blue

To be fair I think some things are weighed down more than others. I remember an anime called Andonah Zero which tried to compete against Gundam and while it was popular for a while it's not talked about in good regard. I just think Gillen thought of it only applying to comics is not true. Spider-man has a lot of Clark Kent in him early on but you rarely hear that he is a complete rip-off of him or burdened by that connection. I think a better argument is that with comics you can trace inspiration very easily since it's a young medium and there have been a lot of writings on it.

From:

laughing_tree

Spider-Man's been around for half a century, though. He's old enough and foundational enough that he's the one other newer characters get considered takes on.

I think there's definitely a perception in some parts that the Marvel/DC mainstays are the real stuff, and almost everything is just different creators' takes on them.

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