Date: 2023-09-13 11:48 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] dan_ingram
I miss this Squad, heroes mixed with villains mixed with anti-heroes.

Date: 2023-09-14 12:25 am (UTC)
lilacsigil: Amanda Waller and Batman looking angry, text: Up Against the Wall (Waller vs Batman)
From: [personal profile] lilacsigil
This was the first comics series I really got into, and I have a lot of nostalgia for it...but also, even looking back, it was actually really good.

Date: 2023-09-14 01:09 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] tcampbell1000
It holds up really well!

Date: 2023-09-14 03:56 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] mazway_75
Back in 1995, lucked out at a used book shop, got the entire run (including crossover issues and annuals) for only $30 bucks. Still have them as the letters columns were just as fun.

Date: 2023-09-14 05:08 am (UTC)
lilacsigil: Amanda Waller and Batman looking angry, text: Up Against the Wall (Waller vs Batman)
From: [personal profile] lilacsigil
Nice find! I started reading them because they were in cheap sale multi-packs with Batman comics at the newsagent, so I got many issues for between 20-50 cents each, and most of the rest for not much more. Which is good, because the cost of the one with the first appearance of Oracle is not cheap now.

Date: 2023-09-14 01:55 am (UTC)
beyondthefringe: (Default)
From: [personal profile] beyondthefringe
The original Ostrander run, especially the first few years, remain classic material and the blueprint for the Squad for many years to come. Especially for what this series did for Boomerbutt, Deadshot, Flag, Bronze Tiger, and so many others.

Also, best Waller is early Waller.

Date: 2023-09-14 03:55 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] mazway_75
Ostrander said Waller was a character who wrote herself and went in directions even he wasn't ready for.

Date: 2023-09-14 12:38 pm (UTC)
zylly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zylly
Ostrander wrote the absolute best version of Amanda. She’s so freaking complicated. She views the Squad as expendable but not disposable. She’s convinced of her own rightness, but is also self aware enough to realize her own moral compass may not always be properly aligned, so she purposely surrounds herself with people like Simon and Ben who will tell her ‘no”.

And sometimes she even listens to them.

Most modern takes miss Ostrander’s level of nuance.

Date: 2023-09-14 02:18 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] tcampbell1000
Yeah...and some miss it by a lot. It's such a shame that they got EGOT WINNER VIOLA GODDAMN DAVIS to play her in the movies and gave her almost nothing to work with.

Date: 2023-09-14 06:29 pm (UTC)
zylly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zylly
The first movie totally convinced me they didn’t understand Waller when they had her gunning down the room full of analysts who’d been supporting her for knowing too much.

Date: 2023-09-14 03:55 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] mazway_75
Ostrander wanted to base Boomerang on the character of Flashman, always out for himself even if surprisingly effective in a fight.

Telling how on "Personnel Files" issue has the shrink noting 'Good news, he's the most well-adjusted member of the team and happy with who he is. The bad news is he's a morally corrupt, self-centered sociopath."

Date: 2023-09-14 05:10 am (UTC)
lilacsigil: Amanda Waller and Batman looking angry, text: Up Against the Wall (Waller vs Batman)
From: [personal profile] lilacsigil
I'm Australian, and it was really fun to see an Aussie character who was an absolute asshole. Even if the depiction of his home town (Korumburra) was a little off.

Date: 2023-09-14 05:38 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] mazway_75
Ostrander joked some actual Aussies complained he went overboard on the slang. When he said he looked it up to see they were correct, he was told "yes but we don't use them in every sentence."

Date: 2023-09-14 10:25 am (UTC)
cainofdreaming: b/w (Default)
From: [personal profile] cainofdreaming
I wonder if that's what inspired him to have some Aussies in the comic think that Digger might be a yank who was just pretending to be an Aussie.

Date: 2023-09-15 10:58 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] agharta75
That would have been in character, too.

Date: 2023-09-14 10:51 am (UTC)
sabertoothlotus: (batman)
From: [personal profile] sabertoothlotus
OStrander is such a great writer. , but I haven't seen his name on anything for a while. WHat's he worked on lately?

Date: 2023-09-14 02:24 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] tcampbell1000
He is 74. From what I can tell, he seems to be retired at this point.

Date: 2023-09-14 02:40 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jgeils
The last Ostrander comic I remember picking up was from an attempt to continue or reboot Grimjack, which was great cause I liked the run he did at First Comics before they went under.

Date: 2023-09-14 02:25 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] tcampbell1000
(In retrospect, it should have been obvious when Boomerang promised to watch Plastique's back that she would be one of the first bodies to hit the floor.)

Date: 2023-09-14 02:28 pm (UTC)
cygnia: (Roleplaying)
From: [personal profile] cygnia
Take away the problematic terrorist stuff and I would love to stat some of these guys up for Champions...

And Ravan ends up joining the Squad if I remember correctly...

Date: 2023-09-14 02:32 pm (UTC)
cainofdreaming: b/w (Default)
From: [personal profile] cainofdreaming
Rustam ends up joining them too. In the past.

Date: 2023-09-14 02:44 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
If memory serves (free packet of salt ahoy!), Young Justice managed to include a version of them with quite a bit of the problematic aspects removed.
So it could be done.

Date: 2023-09-14 03:41 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
It's so weird seeing this version of Waller after what more than a few decades of flanderization or turning her into a caricature has done.
(I mean, one could argue that it's a sort of character development of the slow grind of living in a comic book universe breaking her down, not to mention a shift in attitudes making her seem more appalling as time goes on, buuuut I just... don't think that's what's happened when writers like Messers Johns and Williamson have written her.)

Like, she's offering people a actual choice to be in the Squad! And they get fair warnings about it going in.
She's not even threatening to kill their families or anything!

Date: 2023-09-14 06:35 pm (UTC)
zylly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zylly
Waller here was arguably a bad person, but she was never an actual villain. These days, she mostly seems to show up to inconvenience the heroes.

Then again, government spymaster has become less of a good trope in general. Nick Fury went a path of similar sinisterfication.

Date: 2023-09-14 10:25 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] scorntx
Inconvenience or just outright attack them on the 'logic' that they're a threat.

And as dodgy as Fury can be, even at his worst can't recall him deliberately making someone a supervillain to send at the heroes.
Accidentally creating supervillains, maybe, but never intentionally.
Or Maria Hill.

Date: 2023-09-15 01:47 pm (UTC)
john_drake1964: Image of Patrick McGoohan as John Drake in Danger Man (Default)
From: [personal profile] john_drake1964
A lot of it I think comes about, at least in the U.S., from the post-Watergate sociopolitical consciousness in this country. The distrust in government and authority that came from Watergate and similar scandals over the next few decades until today. Add in the increasing pop culture depictions of spycraft as a murkier world with less clear-cut morals and in a few depictions, how its own rank and file are at risk from upper-administration (Three Days of the Condor, Hopscotch, etc...)

Add in the general incompetence/level of dirty tricks that intelligence agencies whether domestic focused (Hoover's FBI) or foreign focused but sometimes domestic against remit (CIA) had over their history, and the general sheen of spying was starting to wear off. Heck, even the most famous superspy in fiction would in 1987 shift from the colorful and suave Roger Moore Bond, to the more more subdued and bitter Timothy Dalton Bond in The Living Daylights.

Even the Mission:Impossible film series has had turns of pointing out that the teams morality doesn't always coincide with those above them given directives, and has even hinted vaguely Suicide Squad-esque recruiting conditions (operatives are paying a debt back to society for previous crimes) whereas the original series was more citizens assisting their country, in the vein of "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

It also doesn't help that in an increasing age of interconnected media, we've seen public discourses on the age old security vs privacy question, in regards to the ability of intelligence and law enforcement to access personal devices of suspects such as personal computers, tablets and phones. So the idea of government authority, especially in intelligence, being more and more willing to subvert things in order for a vaguely defined safety and control, thus feeds into the realm of comics, where authority is often nebulous, uncaring, and anyone decent is often ground down or forced to rely on someone outside the system to get things done (see: Commissioner Gordon, etc.)

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