Date: 2015-02-15 01:07 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Now this is interesting, on the one hand, getting to see cops approve of a vigilante, but on the other hand it's cops endorsing a vigilante, which isn't a good thing per se.

Fascinating.

Date: 2015-02-15 01:48 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] grumman
"Vigilante" has connotations that aren't really applicable to many superheroes. When Superman foils a bank robbery he's not doing so in opposition to a perceived inadequacy in the legal system - he's doing something the police would be fully justified in doing themselves, if they were capable.

Date: 2015-02-15 02:25 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
If they were not capable, that IS an inadequacy, isn't it?

The big difference is that, just like Batman, Superman is not subject to the internal rules and strictures of a Police officer, he has no accountability for his own actions beyond himself.

Date: 2015-02-15 02:56 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] grumman
If they were not capable, that IS an inadequacy, isn't it?

It's not an inadequacy in the legal system. Superman isn't sitting there thinking "those bank robbers will be out on bail if I don't take care of them myself", he is making a citizen's arrest and then handing the felons to the authorities.

The big difference is that, just like Batman, Superman is not subject to the internal rules and strictures of a Police officer, he has no accountability for his own actions beyond himself.

He is still subject to the rule of law, just not the extraordinary responsibilities and powers of a police officer. You don't need to be a cop to be a good samaritan making a citizen's arrest.

Date: 2015-02-15 05:11 pm (UTC)
sagrada: Clan sigil of Rahab (Default)
From: [personal profile] sagrada
Only a human inadequacy, since precious few humans can move faster than the speed of sound, see through walls and minds and hear cries for help from across a city, tear concrete like paper, endure bullets like they were gnats or melt a gun barrel from a block away by looking at it real hard. And even fewer can do all that at once.

Date: 2015-02-15 05:19 pm (UTC)
espanolbot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] espanolbot
Hrrm, there was an issue sort of along these lines in Elementary, in that some of the NYPD seemed to be more concerned with how Holmes and Watson's case-clearance rate was making the department look bad than the fact that crimes were being solved and convictions were being arranged in far higher numbers than they were prior to Holmes starting to work in New York.

Date: 2015-02-15 08:24 pm (UTC)
reveen: (Default)
From: [personal profile] reveen
Yeah, but that's the NYPD. Whaddya expect, a modicum of class? As if!
Edited Date: 2015-02-15 08:27 pm (UTC)

Date: 2015-02-15 08:13 pm (UTC)
servant_iskandar: (Default)
From: [personal profile] servant_iskandar
As someone who's from a country - Italy - where fascism was an actual thing (and threatens to resurface under more modern, captivating pretenses from time to time) I'm no stranger to the danger of handing things out to the Strong Man next door. Or that similar arguments have been used in-story since JJJ began churning articles on Spider-Man.

Even then, Icon, this (besides the fact Matt isn't himself by the time this happens) and the examples you purport miss the mark, I'd hazard. The officers see DD as one of the team, working with the cops and helping them perform their work -- that's the kind of thing you get from this piece. He's no Marshal Law; more like a cop in pectore, at least in their eyes, someone who partakes of the same sense of duty and civil responsibility.

Superman has been effectively deputized since the mid-to-late Golden Age, and as for Batman, even through twists and turns like No Man's Land and Eternal, he does ultimately abide by the system, and is most often portrayed cooperating with it (just ask Jim Gordon).

That said, comics and manga (or anime, for that matter) do provide several examples of vigilantism as brutal enforcement, critique of the system, or even the mechanical, dumbed-down, unfeeling application of the law.
Edited Date: 2015-02-15 08:31 pm (UTC)

Date: 2015-02-15 01:57 pm (UTC)
alschroeder3: (Default)
From: [personal profile] alschroeder3
That's one reason I always liked the original idea behind SAVAGE DRAGON--he was fully a cop, who happened to be a super-powered freakish-looking individual. He had to (although rarely shown doing) read super-perps their rights, had to fall in line with the police procedure and power structures. He even wore a police uniform, just let his own facial appearance set him apart. I would have liked it even better if there had been more ordinary police procedural, but the idea really makes SENSE--if you're a super-powered individual and want to fight crime, become a COP, albeit a super-powered one.

Date: 2015-02-15 02:27 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Indeed, though there would always be cases where there were issues, like Wonder Woman's lasso breaking the American Fifth Amendment, since if you literallt CAN'T lie, it IS self-incrimination.

Date: 2015-02-15 03:02 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] grumman
Use of Wonder Woman's lasso does not break the Fifth Amendment. Any testimony given under the influence of the lasso cannot be used against you in court. That's it.

If there would be legal issues with the use of the lasso, it would be under the Fourth Amendment, not the Fifth, which covers unreasonable searches.

Date: 2015-02-15 02:20 pm (UTC)
althechi: (green lantern)
From: [personal profile] althechi
So Kurtz is basically Jim Gordon's opposite twin?

Naw, he's the other Commissioner Gordon.

Date: 2015-02-15 04:06 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] 7dialsmystery
Barbara Gordon didn't like Terry McGinnis fighting crime that much either.

Re: Naw, he's the other Commissioner Gordon.

Date: 2015-02-15 04:47 pm (UTC)
miramira: book stack (Default)
From: [personal profile] miramira
Yeah, but that was more of a "being a superhero can really mess you up" concern.

Re: Naw, he's the other Commissioner Gordon.

Date: 2015-02-15 06:37 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: Charlie Crews vs. Faucet (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
And a "having Bruce Wayne as your mentor can really mess you up" concern.

Date: 2015-02-15 02:34 pm (UTC)
reveen: (Default)
From: [personal profile] reveen
The blue wall of silence extending to superheroes seems like it could get real nasty, real fast.

Sure, Daredevil is a cool guy. But what if it's a more rotten police force and the cape is a Captain Excessive Force or the Aryan Avenger instead?
Edited Date: 2015-02-15 02:36 pm (UTC)

Date: 2015-02-15 02:49 pm (UTC)
cainofdreaming: cain's mark (pic#364829)
From: [personal profile] cainofdreaming
Well, at this point the person they were encouraging was the Beast (not the X-Man, the Beast that the Hand worship), or at least a partial manifestation. So, the worst case scenario kinda happened right there.

They did change their tune after the excesses of Hand rule of Hell's Kitchen started to show, though.

Date: 2015-02-15 03:55 pm (UTC)
bradygirl_12: (batman--robin (a bat & his little bird 2)
From: [personal profile] bradygirl_12
I do like that the cops are willing to stick up for Daredevil. As they say, they're out on the streets, which is a lot different from sitting behind a desk.

Date: 2015-02-15 04:42 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] md84
The sad thing is that the hero they're trying to protect isn't himself anymore at this point. He's being possessed/influenced by a demon.

Date: 2015-02-15 08:44 pm (UTC)
beoweasel: (Default)
From: [personal profile] beoweasel
The part of Kurtz will be played by a disheveled Commissioner Gordon...

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