recognitions: (Default)
[personal profile] recognitions posting in [community profile] scans_daily
So, um. Here's a thing.

As near as I can figure, this is from what started out as a magazine called Rampaging Hulk, later shortened to The Hulk!, that Marvel published in the late Seventies. This particular selection is from a story called "A Very Personal Hell," from issue #23, published in 1980, and was written by Jim Shooter and drawn by John Buscema and Alfredo Alcala.

In it, Bruce is on the run following a botched attempt to steal some information that might give him a clue how to reverse his transformations into the Hulk. He checks into a YMCA to spend the night, and, uh...

Perhaps a word of explanation here. This was right around the time of the smash success of the Incredible Hulk TV series, the whole reason for the Rampaging Hulk magazine's existence in the first place, as Marvel tried to use the series' popularity to capture an upscale market. In that vein, then-editor Shooter apparently decided the magazine would be a good showcase for more "grim-n-gritty" storytelling; less Silver Surfer, more Starsky and Hutch. In that vein, he decided to make his first story for the magazine especially hard-hitting and realistic.

So. Bruce at the Y.









It caused quite a commotion at the time: Comic Book Resources reports that the story "lit comics fans on fire...It was all over The Comics Journal for months." Shooter's reported reaction? "If I offended rapists, I'm GLAD." Yeah. Another one for the "no lessons were learned" file.

Date: 2010-07-16 03:42 am (UTC)
tsunamiwombat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tsunamiwombat
...Ouch.

On the one hand, I'm certain there are men that willfully rape other men against their wishes.

On the other, I am fairly certain most if not all of them are in PRISON. Not the YMCA. Also, the Y is a great organization and i'm sure they didn't need this kind of shitty press.

Date: 2010-07-16 04:11 am (UTC)
skalja: Ultimate Spider-Woman posing like a BAMF (Default)
From: [personal profile] skalja
To my mind it's not the scenario that's a problem - it's not implausible for the era of YMCAs as cheap housing/shelters, though I'd hope it didn't happen often, either. The problem is that it's an incredibly negative, stereotypical portrayal of gay men at a time when they were much more stigmatized than they are now and almost invisible in pop culture (except for other negative portrayals). On top of that, while I'm not sure of the exact statistics, a lot of rapists who target men still identify as heterosexual and there are way more straight men than gay men anyway, so it's stereotyping gay men as committing a crime more commonly committed by straight men.

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I have lost the ability to brain now.

Date: 2010-07-16 03:54 am (UTC)
lissa_quon: (wtf)
From: [personal profile] lissa_quon
Uhm...wow.

Damn.

Yes...

Date: 2010-07-16 03:54 am (UTC)
ysabetwordsmith: Cartoon of me in Wordsmith persona (Default)
From: [personal profile] ysabetwordsmith
Good answer!

Date: 2010-07-16 03:55 am (UTC)
northstarfan: (isnark)
From: [personal profile] northstarfan
Oh, Shooter! Such a scamp, that one!

...yeah, not sorry he's moved on.

Date: 2010-07-16 04:09 am (UTC)
neuhallidae: (Default)
From: [personal profile] neuhallidae
...I'm finding that the more I read of Shooter's written work (and a few of the things he editorially mandated), the more my brain wants to die just to stop the cycle of rage. Has the man written anything worth reading?

Date: 2010-07-16 04:28 am (UTC)
northstarfan: (Default)
From: [personal profile] northstarfan
I understand he did most of his noteworthy work as an editor -- instituting a royalty program, starting up Epic, insisting on adherence to deadlines, etc. I haven't heard much love for him as a writer, though.

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Date: 2010-07-16 04:48 am (UTC)
okkult3000: (Default)
From: [personal profile] okkult3000
Gay panic delays Banner's transformation. Take note, villains.

Date: 2010-07-16 11:14 pm (UTC)
nezchan: Toony version of me, more or less (Default)
From: [personal profile] nezchan
This just makes the fact that a gay guy is named "Hulkling" that much funnier!

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Date: 2010-07-16 04:49 am (UTC)
auggie18: (Default)
From: [personal profile] auggie18
So, essentially, this story is "Luke Cage and Danny Rand try to rape Bruce Banner." Well, huh.


And yes, Jim, we get it. You dislike gays.

Date: 2010-07-16 04:51 am (UTC)
arbre_rieur: (DC Nation)
From: [personal profile] arbre_rieur
Two things about Jim Shooter:

1. This was during his stint as editor-in-chief, during which he forbid writers from portraying superheroes as gay.

2. He claimed this was based on an incident that actually happened to a friend of his.

Date: 2010-07-16 06:01 am (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: Charlie Crews vs. Faucet (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Wasn't Shooter "cool" about supporting characters being gay, in a "let's not make it too obvious" sort of way? Of course, the only one I can think of was Captain America supporting character Arnie Roth, a friend of Cap's from his pre-Super Soldier Serum youth.

http://www.gayleague.com/wordpress/2009/04/26/arnie-roth/

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Date: 2010-07-16 05:38 am (UTC)
selke: (Default)
From: [personal profile] selke
Um... I like the art?

Date: 2010-07-16 06:16 am (UTC)
blackruzsa: (Default)
From: [personal profile] blackruzsa
Jeeeeeeeeeeeebus.

God, I don't even want to think about this. I understand that people like this really do exist, but far as I've seen, they're portrayed in under wraps rape porn. Bringing them into popular media in that timeline is just wrong, AND UNFAIR to gay people then and now.

Date: 2010-07-16 06:20 am (UTC)
geoffsebesta: (Default)
From: [personal profile] geoffsebesta
Interesting question -- replace Hulk with She-Hulk, keep everything else the same -- how do you feel about the scene now?

Date: 2010-07-16 07:00 am (UTC)
neuhallidae: (Default)
From: [personal profile] neuhallidae
I think that's a disingenuous question. Rape is rape, and rape is bad. The vast majority here will (I hope) agree with that, no matter if it was a man or a woman who was attacked and threatened with it. There still would be reactions of disgust, and rightfully so, but there wouldn't be the added layer directed at an authorial ploy to further other those who at the time were already being more or less shat on by giving yet another fictional example of gays as nothing more than rapists in waiting.

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Date: 2010-07-16 07:27 am (UTC)
tyellas: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tyellas
Looking at this years later, I'm struck by that last row at the bottom, the transformation - not only how badly drawn it is, but how the whole transformation takes place with Banner spread-eagled against the wall, with dialogue evoking the anal rape that didn't take place.

I'm also imagining him turning around and being Feminist Hulk: "RRRRAWWRRRR! HULK STRENGTH OVERCOME HOMOPHOBIA! WHERE LITTLE MEN? HULK READY TO TEACH LESSON IN CONSENT NOW!"

You have seen Feminist Hulk, yes? It's the brain bleach we need after reading this:
http://twitter.com/feministhulk

Date: 2010-07-16 11:04 am (UTC)
ishtar79: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ishtar79
Looking at this years later, I'm struck by that last row at the bottom, the transformation - not only how badly drawn it is, but how the whole transformation takes place with Banner spread-eagled against the wall, with dialogue evoking the anal rape that didn't take place.

Ugh, now that you pointed it out...

Not enough brain bleach in the world.

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Date: 2010-07-16 11:03 am (UTC)
ishtar79: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ishtar79
Well, not going to unsee this anytime soon. Also, nice to know that creators dismissing their audiences for not getting their 'LOL, edgy' storylines happened back in 1980 as well.

Re: One facepalm is not enough:

Date: 2010-07-16 03:28 pm (UTC)
goblinthebamf: bamf (Default)
From: [personal profile] goblinthebamf
yup. I was just thinking that I needed to upload a good facepalm avatar.

Date: 2010-07-16 12:17 pm (UTC)
neo_prodigy: (Default)
From: [personal profile] neo_prodigy
I heard about this issue years back but this is one of those things where you have to see it to get the full impact.

So what do we have here:

1. Rape.

2. Homophobia

3. Racism. Because you know all of us dark Negro savages love nothing more than attacking those pure pearly white folks. And we gay Negro savages love to terrorize those pure innocent white boys. And as a gay black man, I don't ever have to deal with this shit in real life.

4. Ignorant comments from yet another comic book writer.


"But comics are soooooooooooo inclusive."


I need to log off for a bit, this shit has literally made me nauseous.

Date: 2010-07-16 12:28 pm (UTC)
ext_405869: (Default)
From: [identity profile] geooco.blogspot.com
Whew, that's pretty bad.

On a side note, I thought that the Rampaging Hulk was one of those black and white magazines. Now I know better.

Date: 2010-07-16 12:58 pm (UTC)
jkcarrier: first haircut after lockdown (Default)
From: [personal profile] jkcarrier
It started out as black and white, shifted to full color for a while, then reverted to B&W again towards the end.

Date: 2010-07-16 01:59 pm (UTC)
sistermagpie: Might as well be in Chinese (Chinese)
From: [personal profile] sistermagpie
Wow. This really does seem like it should win some sort of award for offensiveness. And the writer claimed this "really happened to a friend of his." Mm hmm.

The story itself would be offensive but the details are really laid in on every level to make it horrible. Even the clothing the two rapists are wearing. (And "Luellen?" Really?)

I did laugh at the one comment though: Gay panic delays the transformation. Bruce should study that.

Date: 2010-07-16 03:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fredneil.livejournal.com
Gay panic is "I'm afraid I'm gay." This was "I'm afraid I'm going to be raped." (Unless, deep down, he knew he would have liked it , which would have explained the delay, but would have added another layer of trainwreck to this. Maybe another three or four layers.) It's still pretty stupid, since any panicking should accelerate the transformation, It's as though a writer wanted Superman to lose his powers, so he wrote in that being under a yellow sun makes him weak on Thursdays.

As for "Luellen," it is a real last name, a variant of "Llewelyn," so he could have been legitimately called that. And I'm sure he picked that name at random, and it had nothing to do with making the character come across as effeminate. No, absolutely nothing at all. Nope. Not a bit.

Worse than that, I thought, was the "oh, pith." Before that, Dewey could be more predatory than gay. (As could Luellen, except that he's, um, Luellen) After that, I have to reread all of his dialogue as though it were spoken by Charles Nelson Reilly with an exaggerated lisp.

The thing is, the scene would have worked better if those two things had been left out and Dewey and Luellen had just been predatory. The thing that makes rape scenes scary is the rapist asserting absolute power over a helpless victim. (Which is also what makes them satisfying when the victim turns out to not be so helpless.) Throwing in a few campy gay stereotypes just distracts from that.

But there'd still be the whole "Banner doesn't turn into the Hulk when he's afraid, even though he always turned into the Hulk when he was afraid before" thing. And I could have done without "I'll get big and green and tear your...head off." Basically, it would have been salvaging this incredibly horrific disaster and coming up with a slightly less horrific disaster. Even reading this as a parody of a Village People song that I've heard far too many times in my life doesn't help.

And this was supposed to be their adult version of The Hulk. It seems that in 1980, "adult" and "gratuitous attempted rape scenes" were synonymous. Good thing we've moved past that.

Um, never mind.


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Date: 2010-07-16 03:33 pm (UTC)
goblinthebamf: bamf (wibbly!cap)
From: [personal profile] goblinthebamf
ay-yai-yai-yai-yai.

Date: 2010-07-16 05:37 pm (UTC)
kaileighblue: Icon of a character from Pumpkin Scissors (Default)
From: [personal profile] kaileighblue
Jeez. So much dialogue. This is why I'm glad I didn't get into comics until recently.

Date: 2010-07-16 06:06 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] wonderwomanhero
It's not rape if you enjoy it. :)

Date: 2010-07-17 02:10 am (UTC)
kingrockwell: he's a sexy (Seth Bingo and The Silent Girl)
From: [personal profile] kingrockwell
If it's done against your will, actually it is.

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Date: 2010-07-16 08:28 pm (UTC)
kirke_novak: (Marvel: Hulk/Caiera)
From: [personal profile] kirke_novak
The cause of Hulk in Heat revealed at last!

Date: 2010-07-16 09:29 pm (UTC)
crantz: The hamster is saying bollocks. It is a scornful hamster (O_O)
From: [personal profile] crantz
That was vile.

Date: 2010-07-17 12:43 am (UTC)
ext_79087: robin-thighs (robin thighs)
From: [identity profile] wasabi.livejournal.com
Jim Shooter could have easily made this far less of a trainwreck by having a fourth character help Bruce out of the situation and/or counseled him afterwards. And then reveal that character was gay.

But he didn't. So it's not just that he failed as a storyteller, but additionally as someone in a position to broadcast a message to a wide audience, the message for young gay kids at the time (like myself), was "LOL, screw you, loser. Oh, and you're a monster."

And people wonder why marginalized groups often have a chip on their shoulder. Gee whiz.

Date: 2010-07-17 07:59 pm (UTC)
ext_175998: (Default)
From: [identity profile] calling-alice.livejournal.com
This is... I really don't quite know what to make of it actually. Boy, the 80's did always have some lol worthy names for thugs.

Date: 2010-07-18 02:32 am (UTC)
thanekos: Seiga Kaku from Touhou 13, shadowed. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
well, it's a good thing they didn't.

if they had, he'd maybe have hulked out and then they'd have to go track down a surgical urologist

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